Divine Write Copywriting Forum

Hi Glenn
My view is that in order to use "in order to" (pun intended) one needs to be talking about a precondition. One needs "a" in order to do "b". Based on that I would say that examples 2 and 3 are correct and the first is dubious. In fact I would change the first sentence from:
Then you’ll learn to apply this ability to influence others in order to facilitate and accelerate change in your organization.
to
Then you’ll learn to apply this ability to influence others and be able to facilitate and accelerate change in your organization.

Just my opinions. Feel free to disagree.
Cheers

This is my first time in the forums, so I had to do the whole register/log in thing. And what did I find?

"In order to login you must be registered."

Could we drop "in order" here? I think so. But I think it's reduntant in this case because it's at the beginning of a sentence. (And, incidentally, where I usually see it at work. Can't believe we have so many left-handed people working there...)

In your first example, I actually interpreted your version the way you didn't want me to. (I found Munaiba's rewrite a lot clearer.) But I'd still keep "in order to" there, not to prevent ambiguity (didn't work for me), but stop the text sounding like a broken record. The words, "to apply this ability to influence others to facilitate and accelerate change" have a rhythm that seems very mechanical. Using "in order to" breaks it up a bit.

In the second example, losing "in order" gives us "to change to lead..." Those 'to's are a bit too close together for my liking. Again it's a rhythm thing.

In the third example I'd definitely lose "in order" (and the comma). There are only two "to"s in the sentence, so it's not as big a problem.

That being said, I'd probably end up rewriting the sentences to eliminate the problem altogether. But I won't say anything else for fear of derailing the discussion.

Great discussion topic, Glenn. What's on for next week? How about "within" versus "in"?

Bill.

lol Bill, I almost spit my coffee. You just can't get any relief from that can you?

"Then you’ll learn to apply this ability to influence others in order to facilitate and accelerate change in your organization."

For me, it's a matter of rhythm. The front and back half of the sentence are heavier and suspended. The 'in order to' breaks it up and makes the sentence feel natural.

"...to identify precisely which types of behaviors you need to change in order to lead your organization to high performance success."

I have to agree with you here Glenn. For me, it's a matter of having to do something 'in order to' have or do something else.

"You’ll want to make it as compelling and engaging as possible, in order to persuade readers to click through and take a more detailed look at your offering."

Yeah, it just makes sense to me. The way I see it, if it doesn't stick out or if I have trouble catching it even going sentence by sentence, it's fine. *shoulder shrug*

What a great discussion. Lots of intelligent points already made.

I guess I’ve only got one thing to add. Ambiguity issues aside, if you’re in an either/or situation, the two options have a slightly different feel. For me, ‘in order to’ sounds a little more formal, whereas ‘to’ is a bit more conversational, so you might want to opt for one over the other depending on the audience and context.

Just a thought.

I'm inclined to agree with Bill when it comes to the rhythm and pacing of the words. Sometimes an "in order to" is ...in order.... to regulate the flow of the text (and I'm pretty sure my use of "in order" was in order here! ).

OK, now I'm just being silly

At the end of the day, however, I try to ensure it is the flow of the text and the message contained within, that take precedence over strict adherence to what may be grammatically correct. Like producing any great piece of artwork, it is vital to understand the rules, in order to bend them (at least, that's what I've been told!).

Couldn't agree more, abbanabba!

Hi all,

I am fairly new to the board...so hi.

I also think that 'in order to' can improve the flow of the sentence. It is so easy to use the word to too often. E.g. Buy two tickets to the show to escape the daily grind. By adding the words 'in order' breaks up the sentence, making it flow better.

Furthermore, 'in order to' is a creative way of saying to. Our job is to be creative by writing copy that reads well, flows well and maintains the interest of the reader. If a reader read a pargaraph that says - you need to do this to buy that to achieve inner piece, they would turn the next page. We need to vary our sentences and words to maintain their interest.

Hi Patrick. And welcome!

Thanks for your comments. I agree. It's important to spice up the copy a bit. Even if you break a rule here or there. I've broken the rules countless times, over the years, but I think my readers have enjoyed my copy most of the time. Well, maybe they read it, anyway. Some of it... I know one did...

Again, welcome. Look forward to hearing more from you. (Note, you'll find Bill and Angie on Twitter: http://twitter.com/billharper and http://twitter.com/angscopywriting. I'm http://twitter.com/divinewrite. Maybe we'll all catch up again there.

Cheers.

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the welcome and I will check you guys out at twitter.